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-   -   Hydrogen and o2 from water to increase MPG (http://www.dieselram.com/showthread.php?t=197230)

Blue96 12-09-2009 07:41 PM

Hydrogen and o2 from water to increase MPG
 
Hello,

I found this site while considering some upgrades to my 1996 2500 4x4 dodge diesel.

I noticed the other thread about hydrogen_oxygen from water generators and didnt want to bury my reply in the 200 plus replies. I did not read all of the replies since so many of the ones I read had nothing but conjecture and other peoples opinions expressed.

I too heard all the "experts" on whether HHO added to a vehicle does anything. I am a skeptical person and believe only what I have learned for myself whether it is consider main stream knowledge or myth. Until I have seen it proven or disproven I reserve my judgement.

So when a buddy of mine showed me some websites about HHO gens I thought the same as many of you did. I had heard other arguments against this working and not much about how effective it is.

But after much research me and a couple of buddies bought the plans for a hho generator. I built 6 of them and install 2 in my wifes car and 2 in my dodge. My wifes car was a 2005 suzuki hatchback. It went to averaging 25 mpg to 38 mpg. Those are MY results. Not something I read but what I did.

My wifes car had a 1.8Liter motor so it was pretty small. My dodge obviously is a much larger engine. So when I installed 2 of my gens in it I knew it would not be the same as the percentage of hho added was alot smaller to the larger engine.

Still i got 1.5 to 2 mpg increase to my average mpg. I did not alter my driving and I had been getting very consistent averages before I install my gens. I could only fit 2 of my gens in the engine compartment as there is not much room. The small amount of HHO generated was not enough to produce the kind of results I wanted.

I since then did a lot more research and figured out the the design I was using was very limited and had certain built in limitations. (If you are interested in them I could elaborate).

Out of all the designs I found the hyrdo-super 1 or 2 is the best design available. When I have the extra money I will take out my gens and put one of these in my truck.

You are not getting any extra energy from the HHO gas as it takes the same amount of energy to break the h20 into HHO as you get when you burn it in your engine. What the HHO gas does is makes your engine burn the fuel more effciently. Adding a little water vapor plus pure 02 and Hydrogen gets more energy from the same amount of fuel. It also makes a cleaner exhaust and my wife said she noticed more power in her cars engine right away.

This technology is over 100 years old and there is close to 100 patents on different devices that convert water to HHO.

Getting a higher mpg was all I was interested in when I started looking into this but there are many other benefits besides money savings.

I have talked to a guy at the county fair that had a hyrdo-super 2 installed in his 98 dodge diesel and he was getting 35 on the highway and low 20's around town. I saw his averages on his trucks computer. He took pictures of them cause he didnt think people would believe him. (He was right too..LOL)

So if you are really interested in this type of mod it is something that will get you better MPG but the design of different gens will limit the amount of increase you will get. With a large displacement you need as much HHO as possible to effect your effeciency. The only one that does it well and is easy to use and install is the hydro fuel solutions design. I look forward to buying and using one of these in the future and will let all know how it does.

Also there are other considerations to using and getting better MPG out of a HHO gen such as the higher 02 content of you exhaust will mess with your OBD2 computer on all post 96 vehicles. So, that is something that has to be addressed on most vehicle with computer controled mixtures.

I dont know about all diesels but on mine there is no computer conflict with my increased 02 levels.

If someone wants to see my truck or talk to me on the phone I am willing to discuss all I have done and seen.

I am in Salem, Oregon.

I just thought all should benefit from increased MPG and not be stopped by the "experts" when a HHO generator does really help.

Thanks for listening and I am interested in hearing if anyone else has used a HHO gen.

Luke

Chris H. 12-09-2009 07:49 PM

Welcome to Diesel Ram Blue96.

Wow, that was a very detailed post of your improvements. Pictures and parts lists would be very helpful for the "do-it-yourself" people.

Thanks!

Sootster 12-09-2009 08:23 PM

Blue96, I am skeptical That a 1st time poster would have such an elaborate message, had it not been a sales pitch . But in the interest of good nature thank you Luke for your post, anything we can do to improve mileage and reduce footprint is to be admired! I'm always thinking every thing is a scam......squusee me! LOL

Rob 12-09-2009 10:25 PM

HMM sounds like a sales pitch.

BrianJ 12-10-2009 07:54 AM

Looks like an add to me, why else single out a single "brand".



Quote:

Originally Posted by Blue96 (Post 1857244)
This technology is over 100 years old and there is close to 100 patents on different devices that convert water to HHO.

The technology is over 100 years old, yet there is no main-stream production of a HHO "kit". That is because there is no scientifically documented studies that show it is a viable solution as an additive. HHO as a primary fuel has potential (i.e. google the Hydrogen Highway in Norway), but it fails as an "add-on" and has been proven as much by RELIABLE and DOCUMENTED tests, using your words here, for over 100 years.

You have legitimate companies (Smarty, Edge, Banks, etc) making products to improve performance and effeciency, don't you think a legitimate organization would hawk these HHO kits if they were worth a damn?




Quote:

Originally Posted by Blue96 (Post 1857244)
Still i got 1.5 to 2 mpg increase to my average mpg. I did not alter my driving and I had been getting very consistent averages before I install my gens.

I used to oversee the accounting and finance for a large independant transportation company (over 150 tractor trailers), and they did their share of studies for anything that would improve effeciency and reliability. They did both blind studies and studies where"placebo" solutions were added to the mix. Bottom line, no additive or system they tested made a calculable difference. What did make a difference, was the human element. Even the pressence of a "plecebo" additive showed an increase when the driver knew of the study. Consious, and Subconsious driving habits made a calculable difference in mileage.



I hope that I am wrong, and I will appologize profusely if I am, but this reeks of a sales pitch for one specific product. Either way, 100 years of legitimate science proves the idea of HHO as an "add on" does not work.

gkainz 12-10-2009 09:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BrianJ (Post 1857276)
You have legitimate companies (Smarty, Edge, Banks, etc) making products to improve performance and effeciency, don't you think a legitimate organization would hawk these HHO kits if they were worth a damn?

Yeah! Uh, you mean my fuel magnets and fuel tornado are snake oil? :dunno: :D

Blue96 12-10-2009 09:48 AM

Well, like I said before I have not used any hydro fuel systems products so they might not be all I hope for.

The gens I built were from plans from water4gas. If you check out water4gasforum.com it has a ton of detailed info. Their design is more of a easily built and maintainable proof of concept than a good solution for a fuel additive. Don't get me wrong their setup works but has a limited HHO output so you need mulitple gens to get a lot of HHO. The super hydro stuff looks to take care of the problems a lot of gens seem to have with a high HHO output.

But that may not be the case as I personally have not used or seen it in use in person to verify results. I guess it will be a waste of my money to buy one if it does not work like I hope but since I have proven the concept personally I will take the risk but having an extra 500$ to risk will take a while for me.

Thanks for hearing me out and giving me a fair chance to share my experience. I don't usually put much on the internet but this stuff needs to be widely known I think.

As to why you don't see HHO gens in mainstream use should be obvious. Everything you hear makes you skeptical of these things as the info given is correct but not complete for that very purpose.

Do you realize how much money would be lost if we ALL started getting 20% or even 50% better fuel economy. The oil companys are all invested in the auto companys and pay to keep designs of high MPG items off the market. That's just good business practice to have a little control over the use of your product. The government also would lose huge amounts of taxe revenue if fuel use were to decrease. Again this is not anything other than revenue protection for use in maintaining our roads. We need that done. That revenue needs to be maintained one way or another so interstate business continues.

Everything is done for a reason and most are innocuous and obvious given a little thought.

Even with all that said, if you believe everything you hear on the news then you should forget I ever said anything.

Using a HHO gen is not very hard depending on the vehicle. The newer ones with On Board Diagnostic 2 computers (OBD2) are tougher due to the computer controling the mixture so you have to use a EFIE. this a small device that you hookup in between the computer and the 02 sensor that let's you control the reading sent to the computer. Basiclly acts as a mixture control.

Like I said before I too am a skeptical person and truthfully I had the same opinion expressed by many here until I took a risk with my money to prove or disprove this to myself.

Anything that's sounds too good to be true usually is and that attitude will save you from being scammed and is a smart outlook as I totally agree with it.

But HHO from H2O is just simple physics. Adding it to the fuel air mixture in an engine has a definite result and is not hard to believe. The results are tangible and variable based on a lot of factors.

As to driving style being a factor. I totally agree. That it has a large part in the MPG we see or don't see. We could all probably increase our MPG by a significant margin by driving effeciently.

My averages came from the exact same route driven on cuise control at the exact same speed over months to eliminate any variations caused by uncontrollable varibales like wind.

I guess I hope the end result will be a little more thought and openmindedness on this subject as it takes a lot (as it should) to convince people of somthing they don't want to believe. (Too good to be true right).

Luke

BrianJ 12-10-2009 12:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blue96 (Post 1857287)
Do you realize how much money would be lost if we ALL started getting 20% or even 50% better fuel economy. The oil companys are all invested in the auto companys and pay to keep designs of high MPG items off the market. That's just good business practice to have a little control over the use of your product. The government also would lose huge amounts of taxe revenue if fuel use were to decrease. Again this is not anything other than revenue protection for use in maintaining our roads. We need that done. That revenue needs to be maintained one way or another so interstate business continues.

That line of argument is specifically why I mentioned the business segment I did, the vehicle aftermarket segment. Businesses in this segment have no problem getting around the little issue that most of their programmers and chips today are technically illegal (i.e. emission laws), yet they are still able to sell their wares due to the nice clause of "off road only" or "racing only". Sorry, but it doesn't hold water that a viable business could not get this to market if the results justified the means to get there. Especially in the global markets of today where it could be manufactured overseas. I don't see the government or oil companies shuting down Mads (smarty), Edge, or Banks. There are no barriers to producing such a kit and no oil company can stop me or anyone else from getting a business licence to sell this type of product legitimately on the open market, after all it's only a collection of benign parts. The only area the goverment could step in is with their emission laws, which already makes most of the after market performance enhancing devices illegal, which as I already stated isn't stopping other well known businesses in the segment from being successful.

BrianJ 12-10-2009 12:31 PM

Oh, and welcome to DR. There are lots of knowledgeable folks on here that should be able to help with your questions on the '96 (from your other posts).

dblr 12-11-2009 02:59 PM

Using a HHO gen is not very hard depending on the vehicle. The newer ones with On Board Diagnostic 2 computers (OBD2) are tougher due to the computer controling the mixture so you have to use a EFIE. this a small device that you hookup in between the computer and the 02 sensor that let's you control the reading sent to the computer. Basiclly acts as a mixture control."

When did they start using 02 sensors in a diesel engine?


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